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Ο υπουργός Οικονομικών Γιώργος Αλογοσκούφης μας ανακολινωσε ότι το Ακαθάριστο Εγχώριο Προϊόν της Ελλάδας αυξήθηκε και η χώρα μας βγαίνει από το ταμείο συνοχής της ΕΕ. Κοινοτικό πλαίσιο στήριξης θα έρθει αλλά θα έρθουν λιγότερα χρήματα. Επίσης, αφού είμαστε και φιλάνθρωποι θα συνεισφέρουμε και περισσότερα στον κοινοτικό προϋπολογισμό. Εμ από τις 10 χώρες που μπήκαν στην Ένωση το 2003 οι 8 είναι πιο φτωχές από εμάς (οι μόνες πιο πλούσιες από την Ελλάδα είναι η Κύπρος-τι άλλο- και η μικρή Σλοβενία). Βέβαια με όλα αυτά ο Αλογοσκούφης ανασκευάζει τη διαβόητη δημοσιονομική απογραφή, η οποία μάλλον θεωρείται κίνηση εντυπώσεων για να πει ότι τα ταμεία ήταν άδεια.

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θέλω πάραυτα ένα link (όσο πιο έγκυρο γίνετε!) που να λέει ότι βγήκαμε από το ταμείο συνοχής!!!!

θα με υποχρεώσεις!!!

 
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καλό καλό και δημιουργικό φθινόπωρο - χειμώνα!
Επί του ζητήματος (θα σε εκπλήξω το ξέρω) διαφωνώ και με την οπτική σου και τα στοιχεία που παραθέτεις...
Το ότι θα μετράται ορθολογικότερα το ΑΕΠ, το βρίσκω θετικό. Άλλωστε, πρόκειται για διεθνή πρακτική και εφαρμόζεται σε πολλές (και πιο αναπτυγμένες από την Ελλάδα) χώρες. Εγώ αναρωτιέμαι γιατί δεν είχε γίνει εδώ και πολλά χρόνια.
Δεν είναι οκτώ χώρες φτωχότερες από την Ελλάδα. Η Τσεχία, η Ουγγαρία, η Λιθουανία έχουν περίπου το ίδιο κατά κεφαλήν ΑΕΠ με την Ελλάδα. Και σαφώς καλύτερες προοπτικές. Το ότι θα μειωθούν (περίπου 7,5%) οι χρηματοδοτήσεις για το 4ο ΚΠΣ, επίσης δεν το θεωρώ τραγωδία. Άλλωστε οι ελληνική κοινωνία σπατάλησε τα τεράστια ποσά των προηγούμενων ΚΠΣ χωρίς να δημιουργήσει σταθερή αναπτυξιακή βάση.
Προσωπικά θεωρώ ότι σημαντικότερο ζήτημα (πέραν των πολιτικαντισμών) είναι ότι η χώρα δε διαθέτει αξιόπιστη Στατιστική Υπηρεσία. Το έζησα και ο ίδιος πρόσφατα, όταν χρειάσθηκα ορισμένα δημογραφικά στοιχεία για μια μελέτη που ετοιμάζω και την επισκέφθηκα...

 
At 11:14, Blogger Darthiir the Abban said...

Είναι γεγονός ότι αν ξεφύγουμε από την αυθυποβολή του να υποστηρίξουμε το κόμα που πιστεύουμε, θα δούμε ξεκάθαρα ότι είναι αδύνατο πριν 3 χρόνια τα ταμεία να ήταν άδεια και σήμερα να γέμισαν, όχι γιατί γέμισαν αλλά γιατί αλλάξαμε την μέθοδο υπολογισμού! Άρα και τα δύο είναι ψέματα

Τώρα το ότι το κάνουν άλλες χώρες αυτό δεν σημαίνει ότι είναι και σωστό. Αυτό είναι ίσως το χειρότερο (μη)επιχείρημα που υπάρχει. Στην ουσία αποτελεί πλήρη έλλειψη επιχειρημάτων. Δεν κάνουμε κάτι γιατί το κάνουν οι άλλοι, αλλά γιατί έχουμε αποδείξει στον εαυτό μας ότι είναι σωστό.

Τώρα αν είναι σωστό ή όχι;
Δεν είναι σωστό γιατί πολύ απλά η ίδια η πολιτεία θέλει να πατάξει το μαύρο χρήμα, αλλά και κατά τους νόμους της το έχει παράνομο. Δεν μπορεί λοιπόν να το θεωρεί νόμιμο για την μακροσκοπική και ανούσια περιγραφή της οικονομίας μας, νομιμοποιώντας το.

Όταν θέλουμε να περιγράψουμε με ένα μακροσκοπικό μέγεθος την κατάσταση που επικρατεί στο μέσο ελληνικό σπίτι, φροντίζουμε να περιγράψουμε αντικειμενικά ότι συμβαίνει στο μέσο ελληνικό σπίτι.
Και ο μέσος Έλληνας δεν έχει σχέση με τα δισεκατομμύρια που κυκλοφορούν μαύρα ανάμεσα στις βιομηχανίες τις μίζες και τους νονούς της νύχτας. Άρα δεν τα χρησιμοποιείς και όπως είπες, τα πατάσεις αντί να τα νομιμοποιείς.

Αλλά όταν είσαι καραγκιόζης...

 
At 18:31, Blogger not the boy next door said...

Derek καλως ήρθες

Δημήτρη σέβομαι απόλυτα τις απόψεις σου ακόμα και όταν διαφωνούμε

Darthiir το άλλο που θα βάλει ΦΠΑ στους οίκους ανοχής το άκουσες;
Αλήθεια θα είναι 19%; Αφού είναι είδος πρώτης ανάγκης δεν έπρεπε να είναι 9%;

 
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@Darthiir the Abban
Αγαπητέ φίλε,
εάν από το σχόλιο μου, κατέληξες στο συμπέρασμα ότι εγώ υποστηρίζω το κυβερνητικό κόμμα, προφανώς κάνεις λάθος... Αρκεί μια ματιά σε οποιοδήποτε κείμενο στο blog μου...
Το επιχείρημά μου, ωστόσο, είναι απλό και "υπερκομματικό": κάθε μέτρο, το οποίο συμβάλλει στον (έστω μερικό) εξ-ορθολογισμό της ελληνικής κοινωνίας, οικονομίας και δημόσιας διοίκησης είναι θετικό.
Το ότι η πρακτική εφαρμόζεται και σε άλλες χώρες, προφανώς και είναι επιχείρημα! Ας μη μηδενίζουμε τα πάντα! Η οικονομική πραγματικότητα αλλάζει διεθνώς με ραγδαίους ρυθμούς. Δε θα πρέπει οι στατιστικές και οικονομετρικές μέθοδοι αποτύπωσής της να προσαρμόζονται στα νέα δεδομένα;
Ως πολίτες, φορολογούμενοι και ψηφοφόροι έχουμε τόσα άλλα να προσάψουμε στην οικονομική και την εν γένει πολιτική της Ν.Δ. Ας το πράξουμε με πολιτικά και όχι λαϊκιστικά - ατεκμηρίωτα επιχειρήματα... Και ας είμαστε καχύποποπτοι για τα "επιχειρήματα", τα οποία προσπαθούν να μας επιβάλλουν (όλα) τα πολιτικά κόμματα καθώς και τα Μέσα Μαζικής Εξημέρωσης...
Πέραν αυτών, όπως ξέρεις, το ύψος του ΑΕΠ είναι οικονομικό-στατιστικό μέγεθος. Εκείνο, το οποίο έχει σημασία και αποτελεί σε μεγάλο βαθμό την ουσία της πολιτικής, είναι ο βαθμός (ανα)διανομής του εισοδήματος... Και τα τελευταία 20 (κυριολεκτώ!) χρόνια στην Ελλάδα επισυμβαίνει μια τεράστια και επιταγχυνόμενη αναδιανομή εισοδήματος υπέρ των ανώτερων στρωμάτων. Δεν έχω προσωπικά (ως πολίτης και ως κοινωνικός επιστήμονας), λοιπόν, καμία αυταπάτη για την πολιτική των κυβερνήσεων της τελευταίας εικοσαετίας...

 
At 19:40, Blogger Darthiir the Abban said...

Η υποστήριξη οιουδήποτε κόματος δεν πήγαινε σε εσένα προσωπικά αλλά στον καθένα μας.

Το ότι το κάνουν άλλοι δεν αποτελεί επιχείρημα. Δεν στέκει. Το ότι είναι σωστό για τους τάδε λόγους και θα επιφέερει τα τάδε θετικά είναι επιχείρημα. Τα υπόλοιπα είναι αντιγραφή και υποστήριγμα ελλείψεως επιχειρημάτων (κάτι που κάνουν οι άλλοι δεν σημαίενι ότι είναι λάθος - το ότι το κάνουν δεν αποτελεί επιχείρημα).

Από εκεί και πέρα, δεδομένο είναι ότι όταν κατηγορώ την παραοικονομία δεν την χρησιμοποιώ. Aν θέλω να την χρησιμοποιήσω, την κάνω νόμιμη.

Πέραν αυτών, πραγματικά κάθε μικορ-μακροοικονομικό μέγεθος μου είναι πλήρως ασήμαντο μπροστά στην πραγματικότητα της τσέπης μεγάλου μέρους των πολιτών.

Διαφωνώ ούτως ή άλλως πλήρως με την σημερινή δημοσιονομική πολιτική και κατά μεγάλο μέρος αλλά όχι απόλυτα με τις προηγούμενες.

Αλλά το θέμα του ΑΕΠ είναι εξοργιστικότατο.

 
At 20:33, Blogger not the boy next door said...

Χαίρομαι πολύ που το άρθρο μου για το ΑΕΠ έχει προκαλέσει τόσο θόρυβο. Χαίρομαι δε ιδιαίτερα που παρακολουθώ ένα διάλογο επιχειρημάτων μεταξύ δύο φίλων bloggers που εκτιμώ απεριόριστα

 
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